thru the pinard Podcast
a conversational podcast with @Academic_Liz with midwives & other birth professionals about their studies/ research & how it's changing our practice globally - email thruthepinard@gmail.com
thru the pinard Podcast
Ep 96 Qorinah ES Adnani on navigating a midwifery journey from rural Indonesia to being an emerging global midwifery leader
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Ep 96 (http://ibit.ly/Re5V) Qorinah ES Adnani on navigating a midwifery journey from rural Indonesia to being an emerging global midwifery leader
@PhDMidwives #research #midwifery #education #Indonesia #unpad @universitaspadjadjaran #healthinequities #publichealth
research link - t.ly/IkiuJ
What drives someone to leave everything familiar behind to pursue education in a language they've never spoken? For Qorinah Estiningtyas Sakliah Adnani, it was a deeply personal mission born from tragedy.
When Qorinah lost her mother at just 13 months old, the experience silently shaped her childhood in rural East Java, Indonesia. Decades later, this loss would fuel her extraordinary journey to strengthen midwifery education across Indonesia's 17,000 islands and beyond.
In this powerful conversation, Qorinah reveals the remarkable path that took her from a small village to becoming the first in her family to pursue doctoral education. With stunning candor, she describes learning English from scratch, improving her IELTS score from 4 to 6.5, and relocating to New Zealand for PhD studies – all while colleagues back home mocked her ambitions as impossible.
The conversation explores Indonesia's established midwifery continuity of care model, where one midwife serves an entire village, creating intergenerational relationships rarely documented in research literature. Qorinah's groundbreaking work bringing these practices to international attention has earned her recognition among the world's top 2% of scientists.
Perhaps most inspiring is her discussion of resilience through setbacks – from language barriers and homesickness during her PhD to returning home only to face career obstacles that ultimately led to new opportunities at one of Indonesia's premier universities and as the first Asian midwife visiting scholar at Yale.
This episode isn't just about midwifery or academic achievement. It's about how determination, supportive communities, and what Qorinah calls "greed and commitment" can transform personal loss into global impact. Whether you're facing seemingly insurmountable barriers or seeking inspiration to pursue your own impossible dreams, this conversation reminds us that with persistence, even the most challenging journeys can lead to extraordinary destinations.
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This podcast can be found on various socials as @thruthepinardd and our website -https://thruthepinardpodcast.buzzsprout.com/ or ibit.ly/Re5V
Thank you very much for joining me , as per usual . Can you introduce yourself , please ?
Speaker 2Okay , thank you so much , Liz , for your invitation and kind words . So my full name is Korina Estinetia Sakila Adnani , but you can just call me Korin .
Speaker 1And how did you get into midwifery ?
Meeting Korina and Her Background
Speaker 2um , okay , so I I believe actually this is quite personal for me because , uh , so my journey , uh , becoming a midwife , started because , I reckon , because my mother passed away when I was just 13 months , oh wow , and I felt that all my childhood surrounded by the silence around it , and it made me wonder actually during my childhood , my teenager and adolescence and during my through good life , that what if she received a better treatment and imagine having someone here to like help her emotionally , physically and holistically . So I believe , at that time probably , I choose midwifery and not even know what it meant about , like the term of the midwifery itself . So it's more like a calling rather than yeah like a job .
Speaker 2So that's why it's quite , it's quite uh emotional for me , because during this whole part of my life I like always connected with women , with relectors and preceptors and all these amazing women even in my personal life I never met , and raised by my own mother . So , yeah , that's the thing . So probably it made me how I call it , like activism in midwifery . Yeah , probably that's the thing .
Speaker 1Well , thank you for sharing that . That is deeply personal . What part of Indonesia were you born in ?
Speaker 2What part of Indonesia were you born in ? So I was born in , so I came from the low and middle income family in rural area called Tulung Agung , east Java . East Java , yeah , east Java . So it's quite rural area in East Java because it's down to the beach in north part of East Java . So , just a small city there . And yeah , and I become the first , and I become the first person in my core and extended family to study actually doing doctoral degree .
Speaker 1Oh wow , first in family , Congratulations .
Speaker 2Yeah , thank you .
Speaker 1That's a huge achievement because that's a big difference in life kind of just in life moving from a rural place to then study at a higher term , and especially because you which we'll get to later but you did your study outside , in another country yes , yes , so true , so true , so true so where did you work when , after you finished your midwifery kind of education ? Where did you work when , after you finished your midwifery kind of education ? Where did you work ?
Speaker 2so after I graduated from my diploma or midwifery program so actually that's the first time I've been like went to the outside of my city , so I need to . So I went to the outside of my city , so I went to Surabaya , that's the capital city of East Java . That's around at my age .
Speaker 2I need to take train or bus to go there around five until uh four until five hours uh , on road , uh , to go there so that's the first , that's the first time I I I went out from my uh birthplace and I was the second cohort of the direct entry of my bravery programery program .
Speaker 1Oh cool , that was gonna be a question .
Speaker 2Excellent . Yeah , yeah , yeah , and I did my three years diploma and then you know , like in Indonesia at that time , because it's quite a new , brand new direct entry midwifery program . So everything is quite challenging because we already established nurse program and we have a long history about how a nurse trained to become a midwife and that's the first higher education , if I can tell , about midwifery program in Indonesia .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So that's the thing .
Speaker 1So that was at diploma level . Yes , that's the diploma level . So was nursing at a bachelor's level then , or a diploma level as well ?
Speaker 2So at that time , after after diploma , we have advanced diploma , what we call advanced diploma of midwifery program , and then we have , like around 2008 , we have bachelor of midwifery program , we have master of midwifery program , but we , until now , we do not have a doctoral midwifery program . So that's why why I want to study my phd abroad but there's an increasing pool of indonesian midwives with phds now so there would be enough there would be enough phd doctoral midwives to actually develop and deliver a program there now .
Speaker 2Yes , we have now like a bunch of graduated PhD from overseas and , what I know , now there is a midwifery school in central Java that they try to develop doctoral of midwifery program , but still not open yet . But they try because now we have some professor in midwifery as well . So , yeah , let's see what will happen in near future though , but at the moment it's not open yet for specific doctoral midwifery program . But we have like around 38 doctoral degree program in Indonesia that actually midwives can pursue , but usually it's like under faculty of medicine or faculty of health or faculty of nursing , yeah . But yeah , usually midwives can do a doctoral degree under their supervision , but they can do the specific research around midwifery things .
Speaker 1I think that's in a lot of countries , too , that there isn't . They have generic doctoral programs on the education or nursing or health science , but you can still do it with a midwifery focus . Yes , your supervisors still have that midwifery focus as well . Yes , that would be exciting once you can have homegrown PhD midwives as well uh , yeah , let's see for that future , that's a future job . Yeah , so you finished your education and then you got your bat . You got your diploma yes . Where did you work after that ? Did you stay in Surabaya ?
Speaker 2So , yes , for a couple of times . And then I worked as a private maternal care , maternal health service , and then I after sometimes I work
Midwifery Education and Practice in Indonesia
Speaker 2as a midwife at this private place . I apply as a midwifery , what we call like a tutor , at the at the institute of health sciences , so I work in . So for some time I left surabaya and then I apply this position and then work there and also maintain the clinical maternal practice and continue my , my advanced midwifery program at Bandung . With Java . I had to go across to different cities and provinces and I went back again to my previous workplace to work and did the private midwifery practice again .
Speaker 1So how does private midwifery practice work in Indonesia ?
Speaker 2Yeah , actually that's quite interesting , Liz . So I think , if you notice , about midwifery in Indonesia we have a very long history and actually the midwifery in Indonesia we have a very long history and actually the midwifery continuity of care already established and supported by the government and all stakeholders here , because in my time one midwife deployed in one village . So can you imagine like we have a very specific program and countless motherhood program in Indonesia as an attempt to support midwife and women . So that's why actually it's profoundly resolved me and I think like many of us around the globe , about the concept of continuity of care , because actually we have it , but the thing is at that time because the midwifery education at higher education is quite brand new , so that's why we're not really writing down and has something to say on , you know , like publication or something like that . We , we , we I can tell that we are very late for that because we're not . We are , we are doing our job , but we never write something yes and let's because of the different .
Speaker 1I mean the Indonesian kind of country has 2,000 islands .
Speaker 2It's made up of 17,000 . Sorry , 17,000 islands , 17,000 .
Speaker 1So lots and lots of little islands , lots of , and a huge amount of population on those little islands . So there's a long distance . To travel to tertiary hospitals , yes , but then you've got kind of area hospitals , but then you've got the midwife or the nurse who's in the village . That's the only point of call . So , yeah , that continuity is there . Intergenerational yes .
Speaker 2Yes , so true . Yeah , yeah , that continuity is there . Intergenerational ? Yes , yes , so true , yeah , so true .
Speaker 1And actually , like for usually , people coming to midwife first rather than other health professionals , due to that program , that specific program , deployment of one midwife in one village at that time deployment of one midwife in one field at that time and when we look at the international um , the icm scope of practice for a midwife , we look at the state of the world midwifery report . It is about sexual and reproductive health and adolescence , kind of like pregnant neonates and adolescents , and you do a lot more in that area of sexual health education and women's health management than what some of us midwives do in more higher resource countries .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think like the thing , the biggest challenge , if I can say , is about the thing that we're not written or writing yet . We are doing a lot and so much about that , but from the Midwest perspective they're not really care that that's important to writing down and getting published . So doing the job .
Speaker 1Yeah , doing the job and when you check out karana's um publications , when you check out the research link , you will be blown away , like I am , on how productive . But a lot of it is and I think that's the really interesting thing . A lot of it is the background of global burden of disease studies . But looking at some of the historical things within Indonesia and other countries that you're slowly starting to get this out now you're looking at the data that has happened over the last kind of like 20 , 30 years and starting to kind of put that out into kind of not just local areas but also into the international and English language research journals . So it is starting to get out there and be recognised with what things you have been doing . Mm-hmm . So you've done your diploma , you've done your advanced diploma . How did you get into research ? What got you onto the master's research pathway ?
Speaker 2and then the PhD pathway .
Speaker 2So because I work at the midwifery school , there is a requirement then after I finish my advanced midwifery program . So if I become a midwifery lecturer I have to hold a master midwifery degree . So that's why I continue my master program in Universitas Pajajaran , the same university , and actually this is the first and premier university in Indonesia which have the oldest midwifery program in Indonesia , and this is the university that I work on at the moment , but I will tell later . So , because that's part of the requirement to become a lecture , so that's why I continue my master , but actually why I pursue my phd .
Speaker 2Actually there is no intention at all , because once I finish my master that's the , that's the first thing that I learned because all my lecturers at that time commonly are associate professor , professor and assistant professor in medicine , because we are under faculty of medicine and they are studied abroad usually . I mean , like most of them , and they are always so us . You know , like the PowerPoint about how beautiful the fourth season abroad , how beautiful , you know , like study abroad , like everything , like how studied in Netherlands , in Australia , in United States . That struck me actually because , like I told you , I never been and going abroad earlier . So once I finished my master .
Speaker 2Actually I don't have any intention to continue my uh pst , but I really curious how , if I , you know like supervised by , you know professor of me , we free directly but from a background from Midwest background , not medical or nurse or anything . So that's why when I studied my master probably like the last year , and it's quite tough to finish the master program at that time because we have a very conventional curriculum at that time it's very difficult to complete it and I really like I just want to finish it . I don't want to study anymore , I don't want to you know , like the hate being .
Speaker 2you know like in academic world
Journey to PhD and Language Barriers
Speaker 2, you need to study or continue your doctoral degree . At that time there are doctoral degree but again , this is like the last time , the formal education that I received . So that's why the idea came out about how to continue studying PhD abroad . And can you imagine I never spoke and write in English at that time . Really , oh , my goodness . So it's totally impossible . Even my colleagues laugh at me and just , oh , you can study or going abroad with your Javanese language . They mock me . You know what I mean . Like no , you can't do that , that's impossible thing .
Speaker 2And when I did my like the first attempt , that oh , okay , I want to study PSP and pursue PSP . So I finished my master on 2012 and afterwards and I'm serious , you know , like , oh , okay , I want to pursue a PhD . But at that time , you know , because I live in quite rural area , I don't have internet list in my home and even in my household , like the area , there was no internet uh connection . So I have to go to the city . Like ask the one of the mobile provider is it possible ? If you provide the internet connection through this area ? Can you imagine , like how hard and how ?
Speaker 2yes , oh my goodness so that's the thing , like I , okay , I , so I installed the wi-fi at that time and that's like , oh , I feel like that's a quite achievement . I have a internet finally in my house , because usually I don't have it and we have to go like to the city or to uh , yeah , actually like the near place or academic thing , to get the internet connection .
Speaker 1I think that's something that we can take for granted is that we've always got access to the internet . But there's a lot of places geographical reasons , why weather reasons , why we're talking that you've got kind of like major rainstorms there at the moment that affect your weather , and I know that colleagues I work with have the same thing . In nigeria we try and talk sometimes in meetings and they can't connect because the weather , the rain , kind of affects the connection . But we do take the internet for granted that everyone has it , but they don't yes , yes , yes , so true , that's so true yeah so how did you decide ?
Speaker 1hey , how did you learn english ? Because doing a phd in english is bad enough . Doing it as a second language that you've never spoken before is just . I didn't think I could respect you anymore , but I absolutely take my hat off to you . How did you learn English and how did you decide where to do your PhD ?
Speaker 2Yeah , actually , since our junior high school until at our higher education , actually we learn English as a course but not as a skill . So I learn , I learn English but not as a capability that I can speak , write , listen or spoke or spoke .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So that's why the good thing , the very excellent thing , the first attempt . So the Ministry of Higher Education in Indonesia at that time they call a program . They call it Thailand Scouting . So this is the program that they want to gather the lecturer under the ministry , the ministry of indonesian higher education , who want to pursue uh psd abroad . So they have , like it's a part of the preparation , like , oh , if you want to study PSD , so you need to find your supervisor , you have to have a LOA , you have to provide IELTS or English certificate and even they provide the IELTS course . But because I work as well as a lecturer and I hold a structural position at the time , so that's why I can a structural position at the time , so that's why I can't leave for the English course .
Speaker 2So , liz , the first , my IELTS test attempt . You know , just around I think like four , I think like around four . That's like make me pang . You know like , oh , my goodness , it's so difficult actually ios test , and I just like wondering , like how I improve uh in my you know like I had to work full-time , hold the structural position and everything and I learnedELTS at that time . So so , yeah , it's it's it's so hard and I actually I cried a lot like how I improved and I I tried to connect with some colleagues and made a group group about like uh , ielts hunter , uh , psd hunter or scholarship hunter , because they usually over and english materials as well , and every day I just like listen , listening about the academic thing ielts and listening around that You're determined .
Speaker 1You're very determined .
Speaker 2Yes , but the thing is the great thing , because that's the two different pathways , is it right Like scholarship and then PhD ? And I got the LOA and my English as well . So at the beginning I received like some letter of acceptance from some university but due to my IELTS certificate at that time did not meet , so I got like around six . But the minimum for the PhD is 6.5 .
Speaker 1Okay , yeah .
Speaker 2So my strategy was I was looking the scholarship and I passed the PhD scholarship memorandum of understanding with one of the universities in New Zealand , eklund University of Technology , that I will continue my English for around like three until six months . If I pass , I can continue my PhD . That's the thing , and I was so desperate actually at that time because it's more difficult studying english directly in english speaking country . Oh my goodness , oh the accents the accent changes .
Speaker 1People talk slang , they speak so fast . They yeah , oh , yeah totally different .
Speaker 2You know , like it's like more higher expectation , rather than when I did my IELTS in Indonesia , I feel like , oh my goodness , I want to cry and just go home , but you did it .
Speaker 1I mean , you jumped from four to 6.5 , which is amazing , and I think the highest is eight that you can . Nine , nine , nine , nine , oh wow see , I don't even know if I would get eight and , like I'm supposedly a natural English Australian speaker , I don't know whether I'd get eight or higher than that , because some of the the tests are just stuff I've forgotten about or I can't remember being taught .
Speaker 2So I went from 4.5 and then 5 and then 5.5 and then 6 and then 7 . Yep , that's the journey .
Speaker 1So you , how did you find your supervisors in new zealand ?
Speaker 2oh okay . So okay , as I told you , because that's a new thing for me at the beginning , when I travel online to search midwifery program , because the first intention I need a PhD midwifery program who have a professor or associate professor in midwifery , so I don't want any kind of PhD program . So that's why at that time I sent more than countless applications to countless universities that have PhD midwifery program , team delivery program , but uh , I never I and I never had uh my eyes into new zealand because I , I really because at that time , like I want to to go to like a uk or probably australia and uh netherlands or something like that , I never had had a look at New Zealand . But again the opportunity coming and then when I submitted , you know , sometimes they respond , sometimes they're not , and even they said they don't have associate professor or professor in U3 . And and then Judith and Andrea actually respond me at that time .
Speaker 2So that's , that's the thing , so that's the beginning . That's the first time I read through about Auckland University of Technology and I read through about Judith Megara Cooper and Andrea Gilkyson's work . But actually , what struck me ? When they not really talk about like , oh okay , we have our availability to become your PhD supervisor , but they told me like they understand my vision , my goal and they want to support me in advancing like advocating around LMS or Indonesia , maybe , freeifery environment . That's quite the thing . So that's why that's significant , to me at least . Actually .
Speaker 1And that's what . So your PhD was looking at midwifery in Indonesia . Yes , yes , and that was the scope of midwifery education or midwifery profession .
Speaker 2Yes , yes and that was the scope of midwifery education or midwifery profession . Because , as I told you earlier that we not really have sufficient publication around midwifery education Even in Indonesia . Setting it seems simple and ah , why you want to write or why you want to do something like that . It seemed like , ah , that's not important thing . But again , because it was not studied or published . So that's why you know , like people , people thought that it was important and because my background and my journey to midwifery education . So that's why my , my pst topic is about how can midwifery education in Indonesia be strengthened . So that's about the , the whole midwifery education . So that's why , if you take a look , some of my recent publication around my PhD that's about the midwifery education in Indonesia , like about the historical midwifery development of Indonesia . Can you imagine this ? Even it was published in Women and Birth . People talk like how come this kind of publication could be published at Women and Birth ? It's so simple . Can you imagine ?
Speaker 1Kind of like the leading literary journal in the world with the highest impact on the literary , because that's it you look at and that's that thing is that we get so English and Anglo-centric in the world of research . That it's , and because the research language is in English . For a lot of the kind of high resource countries it is very easy to have a colonialist point of view of if you don't speak english , you don't know what you're doing . You can't be doing good care because the care you're giving is different , but the care that has been given is different . But yeah , you're doing fantastic stuff . It's been happening for a while . You've adapted to the ways that you need to and to the resources available , but your principals are still wanting to give the best midwifery care you can to the women that are there . It's just everyone does it a little bit different depending on what resources they've got .
Speaker 2Yes , so true . That's so true . And actually the person and probably around my environment , if they can't speak english , actually they can't understand . Like how difficult to write in english yeah even published in , you know , woman and birth . Can you imagine ? That's the leading , uh leading , journal in me . We worry , but they can't , you know . You know it's again , it's about the environment . So yeah , and only about .
Speaker 1I think . The latest reading , I was told was 13% of papers get accepted into women of birth , 87 are rejected . So to actually get it accepted , you're in that elite 13% . So that's pretty magic , yes , yes . Thinking back to your PhD now , what's something that surprised you when you were going through it ?
Speaker 2Actually , everything surprised me , every step of PhD , because I believe this is my formal program that really makes me sufficiently appropriately studied under my profession . Yeah , because I really like my all my midwifery program , usually taught by medical or professor in medicine . So that's why it's totally , totally changed my mindset and my thoughts about my profession and and how to learn from the foundation , the philosophical thing ,
PhD Experience and Mental Health
Speaker 2even , even , even the , even the simple question , it's not the , the need a simple answer to respond . Actually that's the thing . Yeah , every stage I can , I recall , made me learn , challenged me and always , I think , like , challenged me into critical thinkers .
Speaker 1Absolutely .
Speaker 2And independent researchers . That's the thing , that what make you love and passion , that what you are doing in whatever you work actually not not as only as a lecturer , but whatever you work in in our profession it's , it's challenged us as a critical thinker . That's . That's actually where I , where I learn in every stage , and because we learn every skill . Yes , yes , you know , everything is a brand new , not not brand new as a brand mean a different level . Yes , yes , totally so .
Speaker 1You're away from home , you're in a different country , you're living in and speaking in a different language . You don't have your family with you . How did you keep your mental health , how did you keep your sanity , being away from home with no social supports , apart from your supervisors and the people that you were studying with ?
Speaker 2oh , yes , actually I faced many critical times in my PhD journey , again , because , yeah , as you mentioned , english is not my mother tongue , but the thing is , uh , there were many critical times in my phd process that made me realize that I nearly failed , uh , due to the language barrier . Yeah , it's indeed due to the language barrier . It's indeed due to the language barrier . So I experienced , actually emotional ups and downs during my PhD . So when I did my PhD , there was a time . So the first six months I studied English just to make me pass for and enroll into my PhD program unconditionally , and then we have one year for the professional year , like for the confirming candidature Candidate , and I don't have my family at that time . But I met a lot of new colleagues there , especially , like you know , we have a Indonesian community and it's quiet bunch of them and finally being a very good friend . So I was tried to build a strong super system because , you know , like uh , because I am a muslim and the first place that I visited , uh , in auckland , uh , is a mosque .
Speaker 2Yes , just to find because I want to pray and you know , like uh , trying to make um , you know , like Muslim sisters and anything like that , but after one year I have my family with me once I finish my data collection . So , and at our room we have a PhD fellow as well and we have what we call it . Actually , when you establish PhD Midwest , actually , when I did my PhD , we have what we call it club PhD . We met every month all these PSD fellows and students and have you know , like we did as a story , like you know like the movie , like we talk , just like what we did in PSD Midwest , but it's more general about club PSD . So we share our challenge , our difficulties and try to you know everything that we there we celebrate , like even someone's birthday , have a potluck and have a chit chat or bring something food or drink or sharing food . So , yeah , we celebrate small victories together during all my time there , we reassure and , you know , academic chit-chat , talk about our supervisor .
Speaker 1Oh , you need that safe space .
Speaker 2yes , yes and yeah . So that gives us that we are not alone when we have difficulty , and I actually , at that time , I have a PhD journal as well , so that's always , you know , like make me write something in my ups and downs journey journaling is a really good .
Speaker 1I mean , we need to , we need to keep a PhD journey of what we do so we know what we're doing each day if we need to reverse something . So a journal for the PhD study is important , but also one a lot of people kind of get a great sense of relief of writing down , and that way it allows them , while they're writing it down , their subconscious can be thinking about either ways to deal with it or you know what ? I've put that down on paper . I don't need to worry about that now and now I can kind of move on .
Speaker 2Yes , yes , so true .
Speaker 1So when you had your family with you , was it easy to balance your study time and your family time , because you could go into uni to do your study and then come home and be free . Or did you find that blending ?
Speaker 2uh , I found it very . I have a very supportive uh family because I told you earlier that the first idea to study my husband was my husband .
Speaker 2So that's why yeah , yeah , that's that's actually my husband and my daughter are my biggest fan and supporter . So and actually I have to congratulate them , particularly my daughter , because , can you imagine , when I brought my daughter with me , she can't speak English , even one word , can you imagine . And she came to me , studied in primary school in Auckland , have to learn , you know like A , b , c from scratch list . I feel like , oh , my goodness , I mean like I'm a doll , you know , like I'm conscious enough to study , but can you imagine the kids picking up faster ?
Speaker 1They're picking up faster though .
Speaker 2Yeah , but still , you know like adjusting in new environment .
Speaker 2Yeah . So that's why , like , even both of my supervisors sometimes ask because I brought my daughter when we had the meeting . So Judith and Andrea , like oh , how is Farah , how is she ? And even now , even we have communication or texting like , how is your family , family , husband and Farah , especially because they knew very well how to grow up in Auckland . So , extended family yes , yes , yes , yeah . I feel like I feeling supported by my family through all these struggles and everything to make me actually to make me and kept me doing what I need to do .
Speaker 1How did you celebrate when you finally finished and you passed and you're now a doctor ? How did you celebrate ?
Speaker 2Actually that makes me sad , liz , because we hit COVID , do you remember ? And usually I never miss my graduation . So once I submit my PhD thesis , actually we just have a celebration with both of my supervisors for sure . So they invite me for lunch , and we have several times having lunches together and I did my oral examination online . So that's , that's quiet , you know , it's totally different when yeah , it's totally different .
Speaker 2And and I did not attend my graduation due to COVID at that time but the very lovely AUT , aut , sent me a gift . Can you imagine ? So they sent oh , nice , uh , yeah , so kind and nice , and can you imagine they . They sent , uh , you know , like from new zealand to indonesia send me a gift , uh , to conger , to leave me . Oh , now you are a psd , so sorry that you missed your psd graduation due to covid and oh , my goodness that .
Speaker 2So make me actually theory and yeah , and the funny thing , the funny thing I took so because I I bought a psd gone for the , the graduation I did and took a picture with my psd in edinburgh I was gonna say I saw a photo of you in a gown and I was trying to remember that wasn't in New Zealand and it wasn't in Indonesia .
Speaker 2That was so different because I really want to use that dress . You know what I mean that , that gown but I want to get the glimsy I want to wearing that gown abroad rather than in Indonesia . So that's why there was a very good opportunity when that's the first time I went overseas after my PhD and I bring my gown and colleagues who came with me together with the conference . You were so out of the box .
Speaker 1How can you have ? This idea that's the way it should be . They're the colleagues that support you and take your photo , totally yes . So what did you do afterwards ? You went back home . Well , you had COVID .
Speaker 2I told you . Even so , all my PSD full of up and down , so even I celebrate with completed my PhD , I went back to my previous workplace and if you think that was easier , that's totally not , that's totally not , that's certainly not . So the thing is , liz , I told you that I work at the private midwifery school and I can tell that's the private program in East Java . So so I was the first like from the whole PSC Midwest for sure , in my school , in my commonly , in Indonesia generally at that time . But that
Post-PhD Challenges and New Beginnings
Speaker 2made me , and what happened was my workplace could not support my basic salary at that time . So that's a very painful decision because I have to leave , I have to resign and I handed over the paper resignation and the bad things also happened after that because I began with nothing . So indonesia system , due to the bureaucracy and stuff , actually I we don't you know like I have to start from the zero if I want to go , uh , to another place .
Speaker 1That's sad .
Speaker 2So fortunately , at that time my current workplace , universitas Pajajaran , opened what they call high quality talent lecturer . So this is like the first cohort of lecturer that they want to receive as part of the program . So I asked Judith and Linda , professor Linda Sweet to give me a recommendation . So I applied this scheme and you know this is very tough uh competition , uh to get through because they gave like uh , the terminated it's uh stage yep so at the beginning like around 100 , 100 , more than 100 people enrolled , but finally they just , they just accept 18 and I'm I was one of those .
Speaker 2Wow , that's a couple and the requirement is is so it's so high expectation . So , for example , they more favor people who hold PhD from overseas , have high impact factor , publication minimum three . I need to find out again and trying to settle in my current workplace Even I have to start it over .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So I have to recover everything about my career and especially my confidence .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2But I feel like now I have a stronger position because I'm working at one of the premier universities in Indonesia and I always talk to me that you're not really starting fresh . You know that I just begin for whatever I have now . So that's why , uh , when I thought , when I thought that how can I say like , when I thought that the doors , the first door that I thought , uh , closed at the beginning , now everything like swing to open again and and that's the beginning way I I got the opportunity to when to Some awesome places and appointed to , I can tell , like a very important position as well , like I have an opportunity appointed as the stakeholder engagement champion for Indonesia . So that's why that's the first time I went to Edinburgh , edinburgh , edinburgh University and Edinburgh for that . So , yeah , that's the new beginning and open very fantastic door the new chapter in your life .
Speaker 1Yes , yes , so true . So what things are coming up in this year , next year , that you're excited about ?
Speaker 2So when I joined to this university , actually I realized that they followed what I'm doing to my previous colleague at my previous workplace . They did not understand what the publication means and how important and how difficult , but now , because I am at the university level , they followed what I did . So that's why it gives me a boost , more boost , motivation on working on a global scale list . Actually , that's that's the first thing , because when , when , when I uh , so at that , at , during , during my , you know like , apply the new job and then apply for after upsPSD , you don't have , you don't have a positive environment to do publication , research and everything that makes you create something and trying to build your collaboration on global scale . That that's what I did actually .
Speaker 2Yeah , so I passed , I got the course aid from the Quality of Maternal and Newborn Care course from Yale University Actually , that's the first attempt that I tried to get you know anything outside my PhD and how to get another , you know , like eight grand or something like that and I passed the selection to become a member of the Global Health Matrix . That really boost my publication actually and truly make me realize that my voice matters . Yes , what I did matters .
Speaker 1So that's pretty cool , I think , very cool and I think that's those opportunistic kind of opportunistic opportunities . But they're the ones thatistic kind of opportunistic opportunities . But they're the ones that you kind of the conversations and the networking that you do with people is those connections can open doors to opportunities that you wouldn't even think that you could do . And then you go , yep , I'm going to do that . And then you go actually , yeah , yeah , what I've done is part of this and I can be part of this conversation and I can help direct where we're going with this policy or with this structure or with this statement . That will help direct where not only local practices are changed , but you're changing national and international practice yes , yes .
Speaker 2So yeah , I can tell that's like you know , like it's if I ,
Global Impact and Future Directions
Speaker 2if I reflect that's a truly a journey , because I don't , I don't think that I , I'm the you know smart student when I , when I , when I doing my high high junior school , because I have another friends who who has , like you know , like higher iq , but they did not continue their like I'm more resilient and have a I can . I found a another term about greed when I read the Angela Duckworth book about the perseverance and persistence , about the greed and commitment . It's not about only your passion , but how to make it happen , because you need to be resilient to , to , to do everything , even in just a low resource , uh , setting like me yeah and it is .
Speaker 1It's a very internal motivation . Yes , it's got to come from inside . That fire , that drive has got to come from inside , but it is created and famed to something enormous . When you've got a husband who believes in you , when you've got colleagues who believe in you , when you've got supervisors and a community around you who supports you , then you can keep that drive going for longer . Yes , yes , so true so true . Thank you so much for your time .
Speaker 2Yeah , thank you so much , Liz , for your kind invitation . Actually , I mean , like I feel like at the beginning I felt so sorry to talk I can't believe that we already did like an hour conversation . But thank you so much to recognise my work and I'm really , you know , like looking for whatever happens in the near future and , yeah , hopefully we have a very positive collaboration in the next .
Speaker 1And just to give people a little bit of background . It was august in 2020 when there were seven of us that joined the first phd midwives zoom conference , because the phd midwives twitter handle was only created in july of 2020 . Karana was one of those people who joined that very first one , and it was was conversations of her introducing her PhD , because we all introduced what our PhD topics were , and it was listening to what you were saying and what a couple of the others were saying that made me go away at the end of that night when I went to bed and my brain was going . I want to learn more about why people are doing PhDs and how they started their PhDs , and that meeting is the creation of this podcast , came about this .
Speaker 1So it's been a long time waiting for this interview , because you were there for the first before it was even conceived , really , um . So I'm really happy that we've finally been able to chat and it's been so fun watching you over the last kind of five years , from handing it up , submitting it , going through your different kind of successes and your publications , um , and I think that you're just going to do some amazing things over the next five to ten years in particular that are just going to project you , but also project Midwifery in Indonesia .
Speaker 2Thank you so much , liz , and actually I want to share another achievement . I don't want to be snobby for that .
Speaker 2No no no , it's all good . This is a place to share . Yeah , you know the thing , when I did like pass the course from the qmnc , yale , you know , like , in 2023 I I became a visiting scholar and I believe that's the first asian midwest who came to the midwifery , uh , and at Yale University , can you imagine ? And even Farni management thing is widely used in Indonesia , but here we're not really how and all the things about Farni and Yale University . And I came to , you know , like this place , and even last year I was recognized as the world's top 2% scientist .
Speaker 1So that's a very so you are making waves , you are changing practice , you are changing lives and generations . So I kind of like yeah , I'm so grateful that you had the time to talk .
Speaker 2Thank you so much , Liz .